Listen to Ryan Warner, with Colorado Public Radio’s Colorado Matters, interview RMI Cofounder and Chief Scientist Amory Lovins on thirty years of driving energy efficiency solutions.

“Things are complicated, people are complicated and have many different motivations,” Lovins tells Warner. “It has taken millions of bad decisions to get us into the energy mess, and it will take millions of good decisions to get us out of the energy mess—but we’re dealing with the same people.”

Related: RMI's Ned Harvey on NPR: Solar Panels From China